%TOPIC_TITLE%quot;Inappropriate%TOPIC_TITLE%quot; content on ContentDB

[parasite]

Saying that certain mods feautrin "adult content" should be banned beacuse a kid can find them, is like saying that TV stations should not transmit any, even silghty questionable content because a kid,

Who said that? Maybe I missed something but I do not remember abything similar...

[sorcerykid]

I have to agree with Linuxdirk. It is a glaring double standard the way that sex, which is typically beneficial to the species and motivated by love and compassion, is deemed one of the most taboo subjects in Western culture. Even nudity, which doesn't pose a harm to anybody, is deemed shameful and degrading.

In contrast, fighting and guns and bombs and killing are regarded as wholesome, family entertainment. In particular, motion pictures, and computer games routinely cash-in on the popularity of violence and destruction and warfare. What could be more beneficial, than teaching children the importance of harm and suffering?

Here's an article on PsychologyToday that touches upon the subject rather well:

Should entertainment merchants make child protection decisions?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... ertainment

For how civilized humans pretend to be, we certainly have a very twisted moral compass. Most of our cultural values and ethical standards today are not even derived from science and reason, moreless a quest for greater enlightenment. Instead we are guided by social norms and religious dogmas and political agendas, and a variety of indoctrinated stereotypes, generalizations, ideologies, biases, and prejudices -- which are continuously filtered and then amplified through the echo chambers of social media and mainstream news.

Suffice it to say, the standards by which we evaluate the content of computer games, reinforces these same attitudes. But in the end, this debate is almost meaningless with respect to a project like Minetest, because the individuals hosting these online services ultimately are doing so of their own accord and at their own expense. This isn't a corporate enterprise nor a government agency; we are not paying for privileges nor are we voting for rights. It's a free open-source software platform maintained by volunteers. There is no obligation nor requirement on the part of the Minetest team to conform to any specific demands of end-users.

Now, if somebody wants to start an alternative content database with more liberal guidelines, then all the more power to them.

[migdyn]

I don't like the contentDB too. I got used to ftp downloads or using git to clone repos. I don't upload my mods to the content DB, it doesn't work right with text browser. And when I use a graphical browser it stops responding and crashes

[rubenwardy]

I don't get why people are getting so upset that I don't want to host pornographic materials on my website. Doing so can result in a lot of legal and policy issues, and could result in the site being blacklisted by various filters. It is not in the interest of the community. I don't want to have to review such content.

Your personal morals don't matter in this case, and are completely irrelevant. What matters are laws and societal standards. Doesn't matter at all whether you think it is logical or not.

There are exactly 0 mods with sexual content. If someone wants to make these mods, then they're welcome to make a site for them - like the infamous SexTheSims

[Kilarin]

First:
rubenwardy is 100% right. It's his website, his rules. Sheesh people, come on. Someone provides free hosting and folks complain because he doesn't want to host certain kinds of content. If someone invited you to come to a party at their house, but stipulated, "No alcoholic beverages" would you feel you had to gripe complain and whine because you only got free chips, dips, and soda? Be nice. Say thanks. And if you feel a need for something else, pay to host it yourself.

Second:
This isn't about censorship. The point as I see it, (besides the above I mean) is quite simple: Do you want the broadest audience possible for minetest?
If you do, then our primary sites, http://www.minetest.net, this forum, and our main content provider, should be something that doesn't offend huge numbers of parents.

Why on earth would you alienate a significant portion of your potential audience by hosting content generally deemed offensive that can EASILY be hosted elsewhere? That would be a colossally stupid idea.

And, as rubenwardy pointed out, its not like we are trying to cut out a huge portion of the content.

So, I'd like to say thank you to our hosts, and please ignore the whiners. The majority of us are very grateful for the time, effort, and money you put into this project.

[Lone_Wolf]

I don't get why people are getting so upset that I don't want to host pornographic materials on my website. Doing so can result in a lot of legal and policy issues, and could result in the site being blacklisted by various filters. It is not in the interest of the community. I don't want to have to review such content.

Your personal morals don't matter in this case, and are completely irrelevant. What matters are laws and societal standards. Doesn't matter at all whether you think it is logical or not.

There are exactly 0 mods with sexual content. If someone wants to make these mods, then they're welcome to make a site for them - like the infamous SexTheSims

:thumbsup:

Thanks for all your work btw. I've introduced 3 not-very-techy people to Minetest. The CDB made showing them how to install some of Minetest's mods/games a LOT easier

[sofar]

I'd like to add that from my point of view, further discussion on censorship type complaints is entirely welcome in a different thread, but for this topic, I feel that the discussion has been exhausted already.

So if you want to gripe about censorship and morals, please, start a different thread.

[ShadMOrdre]

I really gotta wonder why someone would strongly promote sexual content in a game that is more kid friendly than not. I really gotta wonder.....

If you want sex in your video game, go buy an off the shelf, rated mature game that actually includes something that could remotely be enjoyed as sexual content. Cartoon sex. Video game sex. Go get a girlfriend. Really!

Blocky characters and sex just don't really seem to fit. Kinda like getting aroused over a geometric shape. Huh...?!?!?!?!

If you really do want sexualized content that is available for MT, here's a BRILLIANT IDEA! Host your very own MT Sex CDB. Apply whatever standards you want. Problem solved.

[runs]

I wonder if it already exists s#x content for Minetest out there...

:-/

[migdyn]

I hope it doesn't. In Minecraft, sadly, there is a bunch of weird mods.

[Wuzzy]

Creating a competing Content DB is impractical for now because there is no simple and convenient way to switch the Content DB URL in Minetest.
And even if you'd do this, you would then immediately miss out on the mods on the “official” Content DB. You would have to switch between Content DBs back and forth all the time whenever you want to access the mods of that “other” Content DB. Also, it would split the modding community even more. Sorry, that's just a really crappy and user-hostile solution!

I'm not against having competing Content DBs, but for them to be realistically possible, there need to be … Gasp! … engine changes.

[rubenwardy]

You could multiplex between multiple different ContentDBs by writing a simple web server which combines the resources of the two sites

there is no simple and convenient way to switch the Content DB URL in Minetest.

contentdb_url = https://mynewcdb.example.com/

in minetest.conf

[Wuzzy]

in minetest.conf

You just proved my point.

[GreenDimond]

in minetest.conf

You just proved my point.

[ShadMOrdre]

The suggestion to have a seperate CDB for adult content was really more of a

If you want sex content in a KIDS game, the go creep out somewhere else. No sex content based CDB ever needs to be "officially", "unofficially", or otherwise linked to from within a game that is HEAVILY advertised to kids.

Are you serious!?! Does someone maybe need to report to the authorities? I'm glad that MT, unlike MC or Roblox, does not and will not advertise from within the game any content that is NOT APPROPRIATE for children. My method of parenting. If sexualized content is EVER "officially" added to MT, I will very proactively denounce MT as a pedo tool. Let's not provoke a concerned parent.



EDIT:
Look, my words here are my position. HOWEVER, the forums are not at issue here. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with posting adult themed mods here in the forum. Why? Because, when my kid is in game, browsing around in the tabs, the LAST thing I want him to see is inappropriate content, streamed right into his game.

The forums require a little more effort, and are not mention, to my knowledge, from within the game. Therefore, kids are not immediately exposed to adult content. No parent can watch their child 24/7. Your expectation that I do is more unrealistic than me expecting you to just get it. If you have kids, you might get it. If you do not have kids, you will never get it until you do.

I am just a parent, to my kid, and to kids in the neighborhood who not even mine, and to whom I proactively promote MT as a great game for them to play. Let's not make that particular job, a free advertiser of MT, more difficult than it should be.

[Wuzzy]

in minetest.conf

You just proved my point.

I said “convenient”. 99% of users won't do this nor know that this setting even exists. They will certainly not enter “content” into the search bar because they don't know the setting name.

Also, as I said, you would have to switch back and forth all the time anyway. This is not convenient, not even for power users.

[rubenwardy]

I said “convenient”. 99% of users won't do this nor know that this setting even exists. They will certainly not enter “content” into the search bar because they don't know the setting name.

99.99% of users will be perfectly fine with the official ContentDB. The 0.01% who want such content will hopefully be able to follow simple instructions.

Also, as I said, you would have to switch back and forth all the time anyway. This is not convenient, not even for power users.

You wouldn't with a multiplexer server to serve content from both.

[ShadMOrdre]

The official CDB should remain as kid friendly as possible.

If you want uncensored, adult content, go be an adult with other adults who play, and write, adult themed games and software.

I would recommend Second Life. There you will find others who have no life, who need to fill their sexual desires with cartoon depictions of the boyfriend/girlfriend they can't seem to get in the real world because they are too drawn to cartoon sex to get aroused by a real live human being........

[Wuzzy]

ShadMOrdre, I would love it if you stop insuling us as basically being pedophiles, people who have no life, etc. This toxic behaviour doesn't exactly suggest you have the noblest of intentions …

Shooter would be immediately disqualified by this

Is this still valid? If so, then that's very harsh, a lot of good content could be banned then only for existence of guns (but swords are OK???).

I wish you would clarify the exact rules relating to “violence”. Because currently these are too vague. Where exactly is the line? Because I want to know how many mods/games are potentially in danger.
Obviously you are not against all violence, otherwise you would have to ban Minetest Game and basically almost other game.

You wouldn't with a multiplexer server to serve content from both.

I don't know … That might work if there is only one other competing Content DB. But as soon there are 3, this method will again fall apart. Every server would have to network with everything, otherwise you would again miss out on stuff. From the user perspective, even more URL switching! It will be easier and faster to just start downloading mods from the forums again … What exactly was the point of the Content DB again? :D

99.99% of users will be perfectly fine with the official ContentDB. The 0.01% who want such content will hopefully be able to follow simple instructions.

Well, that's the thing. How would players know that banned content even exists? They cannot decide if they “want such content” if they never saw it to begin with. :-(

[Wuzzy]

A more direct question:
Is there a list of things that were explicitly banned (i.e. after a decition) due to their content?

In general, I think it would be really nice if you would be more transparent about actual ban decisions about mods/games. You know, in the spirit of free software and such. ;-)

[rubenwardy]

Is there a list of things that were explicitly banned (i.e. after a decition) due to their content?

None have been banned, so far. I've only temporarily hidden "Drug Wars" until I implement some form of content rating

I wish you would clarify the exact rules relating to “violence”. Because currently these are too vague. Where exactly is the line? Because I want to know how many mods/games are potentially in danger.
Obviously you are not against all violence, otherwise you would have to ban Minetest Game and basically almost other game.

I can't decide this, PEGI does:

The game contains depictions of violence. In games rated PEGI 7 this can only be non-realistic or non-detailed violence. Games rated PEGI 12 can include violence in a fantasy environmentor non-realistic violence towards human-like characters, whereas games rated PEGI 16 or 18 have increasingly more realistic-looking violence.

https://pegi.info/what-do-the-labels-mean

[ShadMOrdre]

@Wuzzy,

My sincerest apologies to anyone who is actually arguing the licensing issue, which is at the heart of this discussion, and yet lost in the censorship debate. I do not accuse anyone of anything, BUT, as a parent, I will always question the mentality and intentions of those who promote inappropriate content to children.

I am a parent. When I take my child to the local park, I immediately call into question, and perhaps call the authorities, when I observe ANYONE acting in a way that is not appropriate to the situation. The guy off to the side, being the creep. Stranger Danger. This is what we HAVE to teach our kids. Don't blame me for this, blame the creeps.

The internet is the public park, in this case. Let's not try to separate the two. The creep at the park is of the same mentality as the person lurking behind a keyboard, pushing inappropriate content. Sorry, I am a parent. This is how it is. This isn't gonna change, until the creeps stop being creeps. Don't get mad at me for protecting my child. Get mad at the creep. Shame them. Call them out.

As for the licensing issues that are actually at the heart of this discussion, there is no problem with the adult content. I am just asking for discretion. For my child. When in game, the CDB is just a tab away, and inappropriate content, that could be DETRIMENTAL to his well being, would too readily available. Here on the forums, which are NOT accessible in game, there is absolutely no problem with the innappropriate content. My own opinions regarding sexualized content in a kids game aside, the forums are the appropriate location to host and promote those mods.

If you are familiar with Second Life / Opensimulator, you'll get the following analogies. Second Life is/was a commercial, proprietary sandbox world. A centralized server was hosted by Linden Labs, and this was the Second Life universe. Second Life/Linden Labs had in place policies to limit the interactions of adults and children, they had age verification controls, and the client/viewer app had links to the forums built in, and their was just no way to prevent kids and adults from interacting.

Users began to rebel. They wanted land. They wanted more control. They wanted less restrictions.

Thus was born Opensimulator, an open source, protocol compliant alternative. Opensim was great, you could host your own servers, and using one of the SecondLife based open source clients, one could have complete control over their virtual sandbox world. Very importantly, concerned parents could better manage the use of the technology by their children. To this day, if I run the OS server, I have no problems allowing my son to use the software.

I would never have recommended to a parent to allow their child into Second Life, but did and still do actively promote the Opensim alternative as a local option, that could still be shared amongst friends.

MT is at this stage. But is one step better. It is FAR more kid friendly out of the box. I'd simply like to encourage maintaining this.

Sorry for all the vitriol here. I gotta keep my kid safe. I do hope, from one modder and community member to another, that you would also have good intentions, understand my position, and forgive me my failures.

Wuzzy, Thank you for calling me out about my strongly worded opinions and reminding me that we do all need to get along. :)

[Astrobe]

Rewinding back to the original post, it seems that we want a PEGI3 rating and someone pointed out that, in addition to what ContentDB may or may not host, public servers are like a Pandora box. I believe that because both are features are easily and directly accessible from the game GUI, MT would also be held responsible for what is there (if it provides access to game servers, it seems to me only logical from the PEGI perspective that those servers also comply).

PEGI3 is actually handy because it excludes anything even slightly questionable or dangerous, so accepting or rejecting contents and features is easy to decide, no grey area.

Here is an idea: include in the MT distribution an image file, if possible the PEGI 3 logo itself. If MT finds this file, it does not display the server list (don't open the Pandora box) and the mods list only shows PEGI3-tagged mods. When the file is not there, the server list is displayed and the mods not filtered. The PEGI3 image also of course not displayed in the GUI.

The reasoning is that on Android, the platform used in majority (I think) by the audience we are concerned about, file system access is not "easy". On the desktop machines, it is way easier. In both cases, if you let a child play will the file system the machine will probably wrecked very soon.

Moreover, from the PEGI perspective this could pass as a manual modification of the game (which is visually detectable very easily), something MT cannot be held responsible for (it's like replacing default textures with inappropriate ones). Or at the very least, this acts as a configuration switch that is not accessible from the program itself, and can also be protected via file system permissions.

I think that opening a file system explorer on a desktop machine and deleting a file should be easy enough if one knows where to find it. The protection is not perfect and does not have to be kept secret either. It is meant to block potentially inappropriate contents for the most sensitive users (young children).

[Wuzzy]

I already explained in a previous post why PEGI3 (=BABY level) is unrealistic. I will not repeat that again here. Please browse trough the 96 previous posts to find the answer. :P

@rubenwardy: So the bar for violence is PEGI7? Or is it PEGI12? Or maybe PEGI16? Or still just PEGI3 (=BABY level)? Is this an official statement? If so, please write it here: https://content.minetest.net/policy_and_guidance/

@ShadMOrdre: It's amazing how you ignored the arguments raised in viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22010&p=349579#p349433 :P

[migdyn]

@Wuzzy,

My sincerest apologies to anyone who is actually arguing the licensing issue, which is at the heart of this discussion, and yet lost in the censorship debate. I do not accuse anyone of anything, BUT, as a parent, I will always question the mentality and intentions of those who promote inappropriate content to children.

I am a parent. When I take my child to the local park, I immediately call into question, and perhaps call the authorities, when I observe ANYONE acting in a way that is not appropriate to the situation. The guy off to the side, being the creep. Stranger Danger. This is what we HAVE to teach our kids. Don't blame me for this, blame the creeps.

The internet is the public park, in this case. Let's not try to separate the two. The creep at the park is of the same mentality as the person lurking behind a keyboard, pushing inappropriate content. Sorry, I am a parent. This is how it is. This isn't gonna change, until the creeps stop being creeps. Don't get mad at me for protecting my child. Get mad at the creep. Shame them. Call them out.

As for the licensing issues that are actually at the heart of this discussion, there is no problem with the adult content. I am just asking for discretion. For my child. When in game, the CDB is just a tab away, and inappropriate content, that could be DETRIMENTAL to his well being, would too readily available. Here on the forums, which are NOT accessible in game, there is absolutely no problem with the innappropriate content. My own opinions regarding sexualized content in a kids game aside, the forums are the appropriate location to host and promote those mods.

If you are familiar with Second Life / Opensimulator, you'll get the following analogies. Second Life is/was a commercial, proprietary sandbox world. A centralized server was hosted by Linden Labs, and this was the Second Life universe. Second Life/Linden Labs had in place policies to limit the interactions of adults and children, they had age verification controls, and the client/viewer app had links to the forums built in, and their was just no way to prevent kids and adults from interacting.

Users began to rebel. They wanted land. They wanted more control. They wanted less restrictions.

Thus was born Opensimulator, an open source, protocol compliant alternative. Opensim was great, you could host your own servers, and using one of the SecondLife based open source clients, one could have complete control over their virtual sandbox world. Very importantly, concerned parents could better manage the use of the technology by their children. To this day, if I run the OS server, I have no problems allowing my son to use the software.

I would never have recommended to a parent to allow their child into Second Life, but did and still do actively promote the Opensim alternative as a local option, that could still be shared amongst friends.

MT is at this stage. But is one step better. It is FAR more kid friendly out of the box. I'd simply like to encourage maintaining this.

Sorry for all the vitriol here. I gotta keep my kid safe. I do hope, from one modder and community member to another, that you would also have good intentions, understand my position, and forgive me my failures.

Wuzzy, Thank you for calling me out about my strongly worded opinions and reminding me that we do all need to get along. :)

Why do so many parents let their kids play Second Life? I read an article that said something like "our kids spend hours of their time on Second Life". First I thought this was a joke, but when I later saw that a bunch of my friend's sons and daughters played this fucked up game I was bewildered.
Even the title and the ads for this game contain inapprioriate elements that I'm not going to mention here.